Hi everyone,

I'm new to the board, this is post numero uno! My name is Rob Zelk, I live on Camano Island, WA.
I'm a carpenter and artist by trade. I enjoy working with my hands; bamboo rod making seems like it could be very interesting and rewarding to me.

Most the fishing I do is for steelhead and salmon. I've built graphite rods before, but never a bamboo rod.

I want to build an 11' 8wt hollow built bamboo spey with 5 sides, in an action that would be suitable for a shooting head/skagit style, short belly line.

Does anyone have any suitable taper recommendations they would share? From experience it seems some rod makers aren't fond of sharing this kind of information, which I can understand given they've most likely put alot of research and development into their tapers.

I have just downloaded RodDNA which seems really sweet, though knowing nothing about tapers and existing rod actions, I'm in need of a bit of guidance in the right direction. I have my bamboo already and my tools sharp and ready for action!

Does anyone have any book recommendations on the subject of hollow building bamboo rods?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob Zelk

Hi Ron,

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find that everyone here is more than willing to help with advice. Also, any reason why you want a 5 sided rod instead of the more common 6 sided rod?

Hi mdraft1,

I have read that the 5 sided rods are a bit faster in action, and recover a tad quicker aswell. That said, this is all hearsay; I am a novice in the bamboo rod realm so I haven't formulated an opinion myself quite yet. With bamboo rods already being slow action in nature, I would like to make a lighter(hence the hollow built), quicker rod with the backbone to handle a steelhead or salmon.

Cheers,

Rob

I'd be interested in hearing some taper recommendations as well as I've been kicking around the idea of making myself something similar. I've modified a couple spey tapers in RodDNA (sorry, don't recall which as I don't have access to my main computer right now) and they look fine on paper but having never done a spey before its tough to feel confident enough to pull the trigger.

As far as the penta design, I personally don't think there is enough benefit in the 5 sided design to make any extra effort to go that route. If you have a MHM and are already setup to do it, go for it, but if it means additional tooling or expense, I'd say stick with the hex.

Quads definitely are well suited for larger and longer rods but due to the geometry I'm not sure they would like the broad, twisting type casts used in spey casting. They are better when cast along a reasonably straight plane.

I don't think there are any books out there that really go into hollowbuilding in any depth. In short what you'll find is there are a number of ways to hollow build - straight cut, fluting, scalloping (Powell style) and 'star' are the main types. In my experiences the best method for both weight loss and strength is scalloping which is basically leaving small solid dams between hollowed areas. This gives you the benefit of loss of mass without the possibility of lateral splitting or failure due to compression or deformation.

The other issue is how much to hollow, or rather, how thick of walls to leave. Again, there is no set rules but for your typical trout rod, a minimum wall thickness of .070" is reasonably safe though people do regularly go down to .050". For heavier rods, and especially in a spey type scenario, you'll probably want to go thicker, though I'm hesitant to give you a number.

Perhaps someone else with more experience in spey rods can chime in.

I have been looking to do something similar, but in a 10-11' switch rod for my bigger trout rivers here in the Catskills. I've been looking for tapers for months without success and have decided I might have to wing a taper and tweak it as needed, though that will neccesitate many trial and error builds, so I am avoiding it.

I make a 10' 6", two-handed, rod in both 8 weight and 9 weight that is hollow built. The butt of the 9 weight is almost 1/2" across the flats so we aren't talking a little rod here. These rods do well with both overhead (which they are designed for) and spey type casting. They enjoy some popularity in the east for atlantic salmon fishing. I am working on three of them right now and there is the possibility of a fourth before the end of the year.

One thing you should think about is the width of the strips used to make these larger rods. While you might think you want to build with quad and penta geometries finding cane that is large enough for those wide strips is no piece of cake. The 6 strip rod with its narrower strips is a good comprimise to the problem of the wide strips. I have even toyed with the idea of making the butt section with eight strips. I would agree with Chris that there is little if anything to be gained by making such a rod with a penta configuration.

Please don't ask for the taper. While I am making this rod for sale, I am not willing to put it in the public domain. I will help anybody to design there own rod though.

fishbum

Hi Rob,

I hate to discourage you but what your asking is really pretty tricky, particularly with a first rod. There are very few guys who have built a modern spey rod out of cane. fewer still who have done it as a penta. None that I'm aware of that are dolling out tapers of there own design's. If a guy had deep pocket's I suppose he could buy a Riverwatch rod by Bob Clay and copy it. But it would probably take a few tries to get it right.

Here's a few things to concider..

The post's above mention strip width. If you buy a bundle of royer's cane (large size) you might manage to use 5 / 10 of the culms for an 11 foot 9wt. Or at least that's how my last bundle worked out. The reason's are mentioned above. You need some serious diameter to get a strip that's flat enough to sit in forms with any sort of precision.

Wide strips are somewhat unruly to work with. They just don't sit the way strips below .350 do. They are stiff so it's pretty easy to end up with nasty glue lines (and a weak spot in a hollow configuration) right in the butt were the most strain is when spey casting. The point is you need a bit of practice to get the hang of this. So if you are going to attempt it build the tip & mid first.

A few suggestions..

Start with a hex, possibly a 9 footer & then figure out what you need to do to scale it up. Keep the taper simple - maybe just make a straight taper or a garrison . This way you have a term of reference to compare too.

Maybe start with a question about what you like in a rod and some of the guys here will dive in and interpret it for you. strong butt soft mid etc.

Get the best of the planing form vol 2 - from alder creek publishing (Ron Barch) as I recall there are some good methods & techniques you could use for hollowing. (and some stuff on scarf joints) http://www.aldercreekpublishing.com/best_of.htm

Don't put too much stock into the old spey taper's, they were designed on the line lift principal.

I've cast a hollow warra spey a friend built. Very nice taper but more traditional in nature (and too light for your aplication). However, it's a quantum leap forward when compared to some of the old sharpes speys & it's a pleasure to fish. If you do come up with a rod that marry's fly fishings two biggest subcultures (cane and spey) i figure you're in for a real riot on the river.

I'd like a 10-11' hollow 6/7' wt. in a 3 pc. to be built into a float rod for centrepinning...so far I have asked a couple cane builders and haven't had any luck. Fishbum...I beleive we need to talk more about this! I've done many spey rod (in the graphtie realm) conversion to float rods and know, given the fish we hook in NE Ohio, that a 6/7/8 weight is more than enough rod. The more full flexing (isn't this bamboo to the "T") the better for float fishing.

This thread interests me greatly for my own selfish reasons.

Dj

No reason the taper for an 8=weight could not be modified to work well as a 6-7 weight fly rod or a float rod. I usually tie flies for the North Coast Fly Fishers show in January. I could bring the prototype rod I made during the development of the above rods over with me and you could try it. It is more full flexing that the current version. I fish the prototype myself for both steelhead and salmon.

fishbum

Anyone feel like trying to tackle a reasonable and somewhat detailed 'verbal' description of a good action for a rod of the type being discussed? Types of casts, casting distances, etc.

Sure, I'll give it a try.

Think Garrison 212E on steroids.

My rods are a progressive Garrison like taper. Some would call them a medium and maybe a little on the soft side. They are full flexing to a point a foot or so above the grip where a pretty hefty swell starts. They are level under the grip The combination lower grip, reel seat, and fore grip are 18" long. These rods balance just aft of the end of the fore grip. I cast two handed and fish one handed. As I said before, they were designed for overhead casting but do a good job with the spey cast. The design casting distance is for of double taper. If you want to do a lot of spey casting with them you need to drop down one line size and use a medium spey line. So, overhead cast with an 8 weight line, spey cast with a 7 weight medium spey. The line I use for overhead work is a SA steelhead taper. For spey work I am using Orvis medium spey.

This is just my opinion forwhat it is worth. Others may think differently. This set-up works for me.

fishbum

...........

Carlin- In response to your post about a verbal description of the rod I would like to make eventually... I would eventually like to make a rod where the rear 1/3 would be slower(softer) in action with a faster(stiffer) action in the front 2/3 to the tip. This is done to more easily manage anchor release of Skagit shooting heads with heavily grained tips with heavy flies in tow. I would like the rod to throw about 540 grains in an 8/9 weight and be about 11 feet in length. Most of my casts would be 50-70 feet. I would like to use the casts I use now with a graphite rod; the double spey and perry poke are my casts of choice for most circumstances.

I would just like to say thanks for all the help and suggestions; there is a lot I need to learn and not that long until winter steelhead season! It sounds like I'll be fishing graphite for one more winter. Needless to say, I am very excited to enter the world of making bamboo rods. I'm more interested in making a rod than I am in fishing! Is there something wrong here? I do have to say, it seems a bit overwhelming as a beginner rod maker. I need a sensei! Or perhaps just a good book.

Thanks again guys! You've been most helpful.

Rob

The North Coast Fly Fishers Expo is Saturday January 16. The offer still stands to try out this big rod. I will have a 9 weight that is ready to wrap that can be examined.

fishbum

Thanks for the offer Fishbum, but I have a 4pc 11' 4wt being built as we speak.

Dj