I was finally able to find a can of the often discussed Varathane 900 at our local Home Depot, and it got me thinking I should do a test using some commonly recommended silk color preservers.

I took a prototype discard butt section and wrapped 6 guides (12 wraps) of Antique Gold Pearsall's Gossamer on it. The plan is to apply 2, 3 and 4 coats of each type of CP to the test wraps, then dip the section. This should give us an idea on how well the different CPs preserve the silk colors, as well as how many coats are needed to get a good seal. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get ahold of a bottle of Al's Silk Rite, though I know AJ Thramer as well as others have highly recommended it. It can be purchased from Angler's Workshop.

I'll be applying the CP for the next day or two and will post some pics and other impressions when I'm done dipping the section.

The four CPs I used are as follows:

Varathane Diamond Outdoor # 2500
Water based gloss spar urethane
Item # 250041 (Quart)
UPC # 026748250040
I have had a lot of experience using this product as CP, and I find that thinning the finish about 10% with tap water works better than using it straight.


Varathane 900 Professional
Oil based gloss polyurethane
Item # 90041 (Quart)
UPC # 026748090042
According to the company, this is the same as the original formulation, though that may not be accurate. See this post on Clark's for some more information.


Midwest Aero Gloss
Gloss Clear Lacquer
Item # 65-4 (3.5 fl. oz.)
UPC # 091157006540
I have used this stuff before for coating blued ferrules but have never tried it as a CP, though I have seen quite a few recommendations for its use.


Classic Thread Lacquer
This is a several year old bottle of Mike Brooks' thread lacquer I've had kicking around. I'm not sure what is in it, but it is labeled as a "Color preserver for opaque silk wraps".

Here is the first set of wraps after 2 coats of CP and ready to dip. The top photo is without a flash, and the bottom is with a flash.

From left to right - Varathane Diamond, Varathane 900, Aero Gloss, Classic Lacquer.




Though it is hard to tell from the photo, the Varathane Diamond is just a tad darker than the Aero Gloss wrap. Both of these keep the color of the silk very close to the original. The Varathane dries pretty fast, as is ready for additional coats after 2-3 hours, depending a lot on ambient temperature and humidity. If applied too thick, it will collect in the middle of the wraps and result in slight bulges and bumps, so you do have to be careful how thickly you spread it. I've found that more, thinner coats is better, which is one reason for thinning it a bit before use, and if you don't use enough coats you'll get streaks and blotching. Very little odor.

The Varathane 900 wrap (2nd from the left) is significantly darker, and even a bit transparent as you can see if you look at the guide foot, or closely at the power fibers through the wrap. Not a very good CP at all, though it may be a decent wrap finish. I'm guessing from the volume of user's recommendations for this as a CP that this formulation isn't the same as the older variety. The 900 dried fairly quickly and I'd guess you could apply additional coats after a couple hours. The odor was noticeable but not too strong.

Again, it is hard to see in the photo, but the Aero Gloss preserves the color the best and is an almost perfect match against the spool color. There may be a very, very slight bit of darkening, but it is not much. It dried extremely quickly, so much so that it was getting gooey before I was even finished coating the wrap! It was ready for another coat within an hour or so. The only down side so far is the smell, which is quite strong so use good ventilation.

The Classic Lacquer wrap came out very poorly. There is blotching and significant darkening to the thread. However, the blotchiness is likely my fault as the lacquer was fairly thick and went on heavy. A thinner mix would've allowed a more even coating, but would've still resulted in a darker wrap. Dried in about 2-3 hours. Strong odor.

Sweet Chris,

I can't wait to see the results. I just finished dipping a rod 5 minutes ago that I finished the wraps with the same Varathane water based poly you show and I got some serious blotching in a few of the wraps.

I'm thinking when I test cast it the hard poly cracked in a few places, but was undescernable. Then the cracks allowed varnish under the thread.

Mark

Chris,

Great experiment! The kind of thing everybody wants to do, but then no one gets around to it hahah.

Mark,
I used that type of Varathane on my last rod as a color preserver and I didn't experience the blotching, maybe it was a bad batch? I did about 5,6 coats over the thread prior to dipping the rod

Dan

Hey fellas:

Useful information. Would it make sense to put a coat of thinned flex coat lite on top of the color preserved wraps to seal out the later finish coats of varnish and thus reducing or eliminating the chance of wrap blotchiness?

Hi guys, I've got a can of Varathane 900 that is 10+ years old so I'm assuming it is the old formulation. When I used it as a CP on my first rod the effect was very similar to your test Chris. FWIW.

Bob

Chris,

I've used varathane diamond as a cp (per your recomendations) for the last year. I love it. Like you said, dries fast and no odor.

One question for you.

I had a problem on the the only rod that I've tried dipping (the rest were finished with tru oil prior to wrapping). The varnish (helsmans) refused to dry over the wraps finished with diamond. The wraps were still tacky days later. What do you think went wrong? Did I not let the wraps dry long enough? (How long to you let them cure?) Should I have sanded them? Suggestions?


Aaron

Thanks again for taking the time and experimenting for us . Cool results.

Thanks for posting your sampling Chris. I'm going to pin this one

Ken

Here is the last photo before the section went into the dip tank. This picture is of the wraps with 4 coats of finish on them. The Aero Gloss wrap (3rd from the left) is extremely close in color to the original thread and is a very low build. So low in fact that it looks like the wraps have no coating at all on them. The Varathane Diamond is a little bit darker. The difference is more noticeable in lower light conditions, but the photo is fairly close. Both Varathanes build up fairly well and result in smoother wraps.



The sections have been dipped and I'll post the interesting results as soon as the varnish is dry enough to get some pics.

When using the aero gloss is there any special way to apply it ?? and how picky where you on the amount applied ? (I guess I mean did you apply a light coat and then the second after drying??)

Thanks

I just sort of globbed it on to the wraps using a bodkin like I do with the Varathane. It was thicker than I felt comfortable applying at first, but after I realized how fast it cured and how much it shrunk, the thickness of the coat wasn't an issue. It also didn't go on especially even, though again it cured thin and flat.

Here are the results of the test after the sections have been dipped in MOW. Again, from left to right: Varathane Diamond, Varathane 900, Aero Gloss, Classic Lacquer.

The first 2 photos are of the wraps that had 2 coats of finish applied. I was careful to pull some finish over the edges of the wraps, and I did what I could to fill in the tent by the guide foot, which was impossible with 2 coats of Aero Gloss as it was so thin. As a result you can see the bleed through in many places. I was surprised the Diamond sealed so well as it usually takes 3-4 coats to get a good seal.



The second pair of photos is of the wraps that had 3 coats of finish applied. Again, the Diamond looks good. There is still some bleed through with the Aero Gloss, especially at the guide foot (tent problem again) and at the edges of the wraps where I must not have had a good seal.



The last two photos are of wraps with 4 coats of finish. Again, I didn't get a good seal along the edges of the Aero Gloss wraps so there is some bleed through there. Also notice the light 'smudge' on the Diamond wrap. This sometimes happens when initially applying the finish and is usually remedied by using a more thinned down version of the finish. Unfortunately, once it occurs you either have to live with it or rewrap.



So, the lessons so far seem to be:

Aero Gloss is the best preserver of color, but be sure to apply a minimum of 4 coats and get a good seal along the wrap edges and guide foot tent.

Varathane Diamond is a good preserver of color, takes fewer coats (potentially), but builds thicker (not necessarily a bad thing) and can be temperamental with the viscocity of the finish.

Varathane 900 (the new formula at least) seems to be a good wrap finish, but not a good preserver of color. If I were to use it as a wrap finish I'd be concerned of the lack of UV inhibitors.

Lacquer, well, the stuff I used was just plain bad across the board.

I'll do some destructive testing in the next day or two to see how the finishes adhere and hold up to stress.

Chris--can you explain a little more about the viscosity issue with the water-based Varathane. Just how thin should it be, and does temperature matter? Do you goop it on, flow it on, or really work it into the thread?

As for the bleed through with AeroGloss, would applying a coat or two of MOW by hand before dipping help to seal the wraps?

Thanks for doing this, I had my own section of cane ready and had just gotten a shipment of Gossamer and was planning a similar test, so you saved me the trouble. Now I think I'll just focus on the difference between CP and non-CP versions of the same thread combinations. Now just have to decide on Varathane or AeroGloss--Larry

Thanks, may be a moot point. So far all I can find locally is the AeroGloss. Neither Lowes nor Home Depot had anything other than a Minwax product--no Varathane of any kind. Maybe the Ace Hardware store will have some--Larry

Chris--how's the destructive testing going? I made up some test wrap pairs of various colors of silk and treated them with walnut oil and AeroGloss just to compare how the CP and transparent versions looked. I must have put at least 6 coats of the AeroGloss on the CP versions but still got a little bleed through with the MOW. Seems to me that the AeroGloss is very unpredictable. I really like the colors of the CP treated silks so guess I'll have to look again for the Varathane--Larry

I took the finished wraps and did what I could to mess them up. I grabbed a hold of the guide and reefed on them to try and get them to come loose or crack the wraps. None of them did and everything held together fine. So, I cut off each wrap by slicing along the guide foot with a razor then peeled off the wraps. They all appeared to come off with the same ease, though it is tough to quantify.

Judging from the remaining residue on the blank, the Varathane 800 and the classic lacquer adhered the best, with the Aero Gloss next and the Varathane Diamond last. Left to right is Diamond, 800, Aero Gloss, lacquer.


Here are the peelings. There is no noticeable cracking or peeling of the finishes off of the silk.


I just finished dipping a rod where I used 5 coats of Aero Gloss and I got substantial bleeding on about 1/3 of the wraps with no discernible pattern as to what went wrong. So it looks like if straight Aero Gloss is what you want to use, you had better use at least 6 coats, and from what you found Larry, even more than that!

Maybe 2 coats of Aero Gloss to thoroughly preserve the thread color followed by 4 or so coats of Varathane Diamond to complete the seal would be the ticket.

I have been looking everywhere for the Varathane and it looks like in the NVa area Minwax has taken over the market. I have checked at Ace, TrueValue, Lowes, and Home Depot and none have Varathane varnish but have every type of Minwax/Helmsman product. Is this a growing trend nationwide? Guess I'll have to order a can of the stuff--Larry

Check your PMs Larry.

OK, I got this thing licked now and all it took was 10 coats of Aero Gloss. I just kept applying the stuff until there was a smooth glossy coat completely covering the threads. This really doesn't take all that long since you can recoat every hour. Finally I gave it a nice coat of Ace Spar Varnish and there isn't a bleed through in sight! Even the edges came out fine. Of course the real test will come when it all gets dipped but I figure that if I can apply a coat or two of spar varnish to the wraps before dipping them then they should be safe. Still no sign of Varathane water soluble in Northern Virginia although I did run across the new oil-based Varathane Spar at the Ace store today along with just about every kind fo Minwax product they make--those guys are out to corner the market here--Larry

Another update. Well after the AeroGloss sat about a week the small amount that spilled over onto the cane started to lift and that created a glossy shimmer under it. I carefully trimmed it back to the edge of the wraps and then applied a layer of MOW to hold it down. I may jsut end up chopping those wraps off and redo them.

Anyway after that failure I ordered a bottle of Al's Color Rite from Anglers Workshop. Chris Carlin also snet me a bottle of the water soluble Varathane to try. I did some Java Brown test wraps and gave them each a coat of these 2 finishes. You already know what the Varathane looked like, same as Chris's test above. The Color Rite came out a shade lighter even than the Varathane and Aerogloss--essentially the same as the original thread on the spool. After 3 coats of CP I gave them a coat of MOW. The Color Rite in addition to doing such a good job of maintaining the original color also made the threads lay nice and flat and there wasn't a fuzzy in sight. I figure that about 3 coats of MOW is all I'll need for a smooth finish. BTW, there wasn't a single bleed through, even at he edges of the wraps or around the guide foot tunnels--my search for the perfect color preserver is over--Larry

excellent work, thank you. i probably color preserve wraps more than most professional builders and have been doing it a long time so here are a few long term observations.
the aero gloss has very little in the way of plasticizers in it, that does two things, it makes the thread change very little in color and it will lift off the blank after a couple of years, i think you alluded to the beginning of the problem. the mikes preserver does away with that problem with callaphon as a plsticizer but as you can see it also detroys its ability to preserve the thread in a neutral way. this problem is mirrored by other solvent based laquers, ie: Sig brand nitrate sticks to the cane much better as nitrate dopes will but the plasticizers leave the result blotchy.
i am a little disturbed by the reccomendations for it as the criteria seems to be how the rod looks the day we built it and ignores the long term problems inherent in its use. i always try to have a 50 year 'time window' for the rods as that seem to be their useful life. the solvent based preservers in the 70's worked great, no lifting, minimum blotching when varnished. don't know what happened but the new stuff doesn'r work like the old stuff. you might want to experiment with clear nail polish brands....
any of the modern water based preservers bond to the blank much better over time but lack a certain brilliance in their effect compared to laquers.
shellac as a CP is interesting, it bonds to the blank well and although it dries quite hard i have not had the problem with lifting as with some laquers. synthetic varnishes(and virtually all of them are with the exception of waterlox and birchwood casy tru-oil that come to mind) will not bond to the shellac well, dewaxed helps but does not cure this problem. if the rod is exposed to high heat the layers will partially debond leaving a milky appearance. a coat of the previous;y mentiond natural vanished between the shellac and the finish coat seems to help
that leads us to the current fashion of clear wraps, the fashionistas seem to promote the idea that it very technically demanding when in reality it is so much easier than CP wraps. clear wraps are easy, fast, mechanically very sound and very pretty but with only a couple of exceptions it is not a classic look.

AJ--I think your comment about the longevity of these CP treatments is a good one. Does anyone know how long Al's Color Rite has been in use? It has the same milky appearance as the water soluble Varathane, cleans up with water, but has an alcohol carrier so I bet it is a clear gloss acrylic like the Varathane. May be the same as Mop'n Glow Acrylic floor wax. I personally like the transparent/translucent wraps a lot myself but the Java Brown/Antique Gold thread makes a really classy combination. Hope it deos last a few years--Larry

over a decade so far flydoc, no signs of failure, yet....

Thank you for the update and additional information gentlemen!

Chris, or "He-Who-is-Trying-to-be-Patient-as-he-Waits-for-his-Bottle-of-Al's-to-be-Shipped".

Well AJ, next time I question anything, I'm just going to give you a call instead of going through all this damn testing as you had it right from the start.

I received my bottle of Al's earlier this week and as I had a personal rod that was all wrapped (Pearsall's gossamer) and ready for finish, I used it. I applied 4 coats on the wraps using a square brush, being careful to pull a little excess over the edges onto the cane, and applied a couple extra drops using a bodkin to the tents around the guide feet for good measure.

The stuff dries in 1 hour, is very, very thin build, cures in 12 hours and does a great job of preserving the color and sparkle of silk.

The rod that I just dipped came out with no bleed through on any of the wraps including guide wraps, ferrule wraps, intermediates and trim wraps! With AJ's longevity endorsement, I couldn't be happier.

I just wanted to publicly thank A.J. for providing the insight on color preserving. I have just finished running some tests with 4 coats of Al's and then my normal spar varnish on top. It worked perfectly and will now allow me to replicate more closely some of the classic rods in terms of cosmetics.

And Chris, your color preserver test was great and saved me time and headaches.

Thanks you guys!

Jay

Chris,

So, has your opinion changed after your testing about the weakness of wraps with color preserver and the advisability of using only varnish?

Mark

Well, my feeling is CP'd wraps are "strong enough" for all but the most severe abuse, but they are definitely not as strong as non-CP'd wraps. On my saltwater series rods I'm making now I'm not offering color preserved wraps as an option because I want the extra strength and adhesion, plus I'm using RECOIL saltwater guides which are more flexible than Snake's so they'll need the better bond.

This has been a very illuminating topic. It turns out that the clear urethane I have always used is OK but I haven't been putting on enough coats. But the information about Al's Silk Rite is very convincing and I ordered some which arrived yesterday after I already had a coat of urethane on my windings. Now, must continue with more coats of the same or can I switch to Al's for succeeding coats?

Skip

I've never tried it that way Skip. I'd expect it would work just fine but I can't say for certain.

Has anybody an idea where I could get Al`s here in Europe i.e. Germany?

Thanks

Christian

As far as I know you can only get it from Angler's Workshop in WA, USA.

Email me your mailing address Christian. I've got you covered.

AJ, don't you use about 5 or 6 coats of Al's on your wraps?

Not sure what AJ does, but that is exactly what I do - 5-6 coats.

.