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#1 Freimut Zoll

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:53 AM

Hello friends!
In our German "Fliegenfischer-Forum" was a question which could'nt be answered in a satisfying way:
What are the advantages or disadvantages of the American pattern (since ab. 1920) campared with the English pattern? (You know: the American ones are standig higher off the blank while the English ones laying shallow on.) I mean: Others than keeping the wet line off the blank; even the forecast will bring the line in his most wet condition to the blank...
I asked this question to an wellknown US-Linemanufactorer who was producing even in that time already - to my displeasure without reply...
Since I couldn'nt find any posting in the German forum nor in any American one let me ask here and - please, don't mind my pidgin-English; as a scolar I was sure: If I would be able to buy food, it would be sufficient... What a shame!

Best regards and many thanks in advance

Freimut
TL!

#2 John T.

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:30 AM

Guten Tag, Herr Zoll. I'm sorry that I can't answer your question but I'm sure that there are some who can give you an answer. Welkommen!

John T.

 

 

Marriage is like a deck of cards- in the beginning, all you need is two hearts and a diamond.  In the end, you wish you had a club and a spade.


#3 kbproctor

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:19 PM

Freimut,

I suspect it has more to do with economics than anything else. I would bet the "American style" you refer to are easier to make or make the machines for.
Kevin

Colorado Custom Fly Rods, Ltd.

If your parents never had kids, chances are you won't either....

#4 Freimut Zoll

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:50 AM

Thanx to you both!
To John for his warm "Willkommen" and to Kevin for his noncapitalistic opinion of the twisted guide business !
Kevin, I don't share your opinion since there have must been some serious reasons for changing from English to American Pattern. Is this stuff rare enough to write a dissertation of it? eek.gif
Let's see probably the coming weekend will bring some comments...

Best Regards, have a nice weekend!

Freimut (from the far side of the pond)
TL!

#5 Steve65

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

Several sellers of snake giuides cite Holloway and Hopkins, makers of quality snake guides of both patterns, that the English pattern was more suited to slow action fly rods, while the higher (and twisted the opposite direction) American pattern guides were more suited to fast action rods. H&H selles the American pattern for a higher price, but being a UK company that may mean that they have smaller production runs of the American pattern. Basic materials would be the same though being slightly higher, American pattern would require a bit more wire per guide. But I'd guess that is a very small part of any cost differences between the two. More likely a factor is that Americans are richer and will, therefore, pay more. Americans do also tend to favor the faster action rods.


#6 Freimut Zoll

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:18 PM

Thanks a lot, Steve,
for your posting.
It's true that the American pattern is a little more expensive even to make since the legs are an extra job theyself.
Since the beginning of my rodbuilding I produced American pattern and put them on my blanks. But now as I've read the advantages/disadvantages of both I decided to the English pattern 'cause there will be less hanging up of the nods of the leader in the angel between feet and blank when landing a fish.
A further fact is you can make the English pattern with a minimum of device: only two disks with two little holes on an axis with the diameter of the (inner-) diameter of the guides - one twist - finished.

Is by H&H also said that the higher standing guides are better for fast action rods or only suitable? Does that mean the longer the distance to cast the higher the guides?

Oh, I see: I haven't yet terminated my researches.

If I'll now twist the English pattern to get a better inlining (for righthanders) - yep! - I've created a European pattern!!!

Thanks again and have a nice day

BR
Freimut
TL!

#7 kbproctor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:44 PM

When you speak of hand making guides, similar tools can be used to make either "type" of guide. The American style would simply move the holes in the disk a bit farther from the center piece and turn the disks the opposite direction. This would give the loop a more teardrop shape and move it away from the blank. For that reason my first assumption would not be accurate.

However, one cannot discount money from the equation. It is entirely possible that in an effort to sell more rods or guides, the American style was introduced as an "improvement". How many supposed improvements have we seen? All were aimed at selling more rods whether they were true improvements or not. Some were true improvements but many were nothing more than gimmicks to get people to buy more rods.
Kevin

Colorado Custom Fly Rods, Ltd.

If your parents never had kids, chances are you won't either....

#8 Freimut Zoll

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:55 PM

Hello, Kevin!
I like you so much because you are so destructive (or at least realistic) in a refreshening way! But I think you're right since it seems that the changements of the guide forms was introduced to mark US-made rods in the competion with British or European imports... Only Fred Thomas refused that humbug!
In the "Fliegenfischer-Forum" a discuss had taken place about the advantage/disadvantage of the American pattern. One of the arguments came with the following picture, where the line is lead around the feet of an American pattern scratching over the blank between the guides (forecast). Even between the feet of a guide there are scratches from line using, you can imagine that when you'd lay the line on the frontside of the blank ( at the right side of the photograph).



So it is obvious that the American pattern belongs to steeper (faster) rods. Or not?
That was Pt. 1.
Pt. 2: Which guides do you prefer?

Cheers
Freimut
TL!

#9 kbproctor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:59 PM

The best way to minimize what is shown in that picture is to not use a snake guide at all! H&H single foot guides stand off from the blank farther than those from Pacific Bay or American Tackle by a fair amount. Inserted single foot fly guides do the same. However, since there is little to no line movement through the guides until the kinetic energy stored in the back cast is released when the fore-cast is stopped, I think it is a moot point. As the rod flexes forward, the line is no longer in contact with the blank and is not hindered by contact with the blank. The purpose of the guides at this point is to ensure a smooth flow of line that minimizes angular changes which will hinder line velocity. Any guide that is positioned properly on the blank can do this. The only thing left to consider is friction. A single foot guide has less contact area with the line and should therefore have less potential for friction. I seriously doubt that more than a very few casters will be able to tell the difference, though.

With modern smooth coated lines, I do not see that there would be a difference between either style of snake guides.
Kevin

Colorado Custom Fly Rods, Ltd.

If your parents never had kids, chances are you won't either....

#10 VGB

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

My 1st post after a long time lurking rolleyes.gif I did come across this from Guides n Blanks the other day:

http://www.guidesnbl...nglish_pattern_





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