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Color Preserver Test


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#16 Carlin

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 02:05 PM

QUOTE
Just how thin should it be, and does temperature matter? Do you goop it on, flow it on, or really work it into the thread?

From my experience, thinning about 10% usually works fine. However, I have recently been using a thinner mixture, maybe 20%, for the first 2 coats then the 10% mixture for the final 2-3. Keeping the first couple coats thin seems to eliminate the problem shown above. I also like to add one additional coat to the flat on which the guide sits as I've found this is where 90% if the bleed through occurs.

For application all I do is dip a fly tying bodkin into the Varathane and wipe and smear it on the wraps. It will absorb quite easily, just be sure you get full wrap coverage and pull some over the edges on the last 2-3 coats.

You don't want it too thick, yet thick enough to completely cover the wraps. Applying a coat that is too thick will result in it pooling in the middle of the flat. It is easy enough to sand flat again, but easier still to avoid it in the first place.

QUOTE
As for the bleed through with AeroGloss, would applying a coat or two of MOW by hand before dipping help to seal the wraps?

Absolutely not. MOW, or any non CP finish, is the problem and will cause the streaking on an incompletely sealed wrap regardless of whether it is dipped or brushed on. The bottom line is you have to get a complete seal with your CP of choice before applying any non-CP finish like MOW or an oil based polyurethane.

Chris

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#17 FlyDoctor

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 07:11 PM

Thanks, may be a moot point. So far all I can find locally is the AeroGloss. Neither Lowes nor Home Depot had anything other than a Minwax product--no Varathane of any kind. Maybe the Ace Hardware store will have some--Larry

#18 FlyDoctor

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 07:26 PM

Chris--how's the destructive testing going? I made up some test wrap pairs of various colors of silk and treated them with walnut oil and AeroGloss just to compare how the CP and transparent versions looked. I must have put at least 6 coats of the AeroGloss on the CP versions but still got a little bleed through with the MOW. Seems to me that the AeroGloss is very unpredictable. I really like the colors of the CP treated silks so guess I'll have to look again for the Varathane--Larry

#19 Carlin

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 11:09 PM

I took the finished wraps and did what I could to mess them up. I grabbed a hold of the guide and reefed on them to try and get them to come loose or crack the wraps. None of them did and everything held together fine. So, I cut off each wrap by slicing along the guide foot with a razor then peeled off the wraps. They all appeared to come off with the same ease, though it is tough to quantify.

Judging from the remaining residue on the blank, the Varathane 800 and the classic lacquer adhered the best, with the Aero Gloss next and the Varathane Diamond last. Left to right is Diamond, 800, Aero Gloss, lacquer.
user posted image

Here are the peelings. There is no noticeable cracking or peeling of the finishes off of the silk.
user posted image

I just finished dipping a rod where I used 5 coats of Aero Gloss and I got substantial bleeding on about 1/3 of the wraps with no discernible pattern as to what went wrong. mad.gif So it looks like if straight Aero Gloss is what you want to use, you had better use at least 6 coats, and from what you found Larry, even more than that!

Maybe 2 coats of Aero Gloss to thoroughly preserve the thread color followed by 4 or so coats of Varathane Diamond to complete the seal would be the ticket. dunno.gif

Chris

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#20 FlyDoctor

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 10:00 AM

I have been looking everywhere for the Varathane and it looks like in the NVa area Minwax has taken over the market. I have checked at Ace, TrueValue, Lowes, and Home Depot and none have Varathane varnish but have every type of Minwax/Helmsman product. Is this a growing trend nationwide? Guess I'll have to order a can of the stuff--Larry

#21 Carlin

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 01:34 PM

Check your PMs Larry. wink.gif

Chris

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#22 FlyDoctor

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 06:36 PM

OK, I got this thing licked now and all it took was 10 coats of Aero Gloss. I just kept applying the stuff until there was a smooth glossy coat completely covering the threads. This really doesn't take all that long since you can recoat every hour. Finally I gave it a nice coat of Ace Spar Varnish and there isn't a bleed through in sight! Even the edges came out fine. Of course the real test will come when it all gets dipped but I figure that if I can apply a coat or two of spar varnish to the wraps before dipping them then they should be safe. Still no sign of Varathane water soluble in Northern Virginia although I did run across the new oil-based Varathane Spar at the Ace store today along with just about every kind fo Minwax product they make--those guys are out to corner the market here--Larry

#23 FlyDoctor

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 09:18 PM

Another update. Well after the AeroGloss sat about a week the small amount that spilled over onto the cane started to lift and that created a glossy shimmer under it. I carefully trimmed it back to the edge of the wraps and then applied a layer of MOW to hold it down. I may jsut end up chopping those wraps off and redo them.

Anyway after that failure I ordered a bottle of Al's Color Rite from Anglers Workshop. Chris Carlin also snet me a bottle of the water soluble Varathane to try. I did some Java Brown test wraps and gave them each a coat of these 2 finishes. You already know what the Varathane looked like, same as Chris's test above. The Color Rite came out a shade lighter even than the Varathane and Aerogloss--essentially the same as the original thread on the spool. After 3 coats of CP I gave them a coat of MOW. The Color Rite in addition to doing such a good job of maintaining the original color also made the threads lay nice and flat and there wasn't a fuzzy in sight. I figure that about 3 coats of MOW is all I'll need for a smooth finish. BTW, there wasn't a single bleed through, even at he edges of the wraps or around the guide foot tunnels--my search for the perfect color preserver is over--Larry kicking.gif clapping.gif kicking.gif

#24 ajthramer

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 02:42 AM

excellent work, thank you. i probably color preserve wraps more than most professional builders and have been doing it a long time so here are a few long term observations.
the aero gloss has very little in the way of plasticizers in it, that does two things, it makes the thread change very little in color and it will lift off the blank after a couple of years, i think you alluded to the beginning of the problem. the mikes preserver does away with that problem with callaphon as a plsticizer but as you can see it also detroys its ability to preserve the thread in a neutral way. this problem is mirrored by other solvent based laquers, ie: Sig brand nitrate sticks to the cane much better as nitrate dopes will but the plasticizers leave the result blotchy.
i am a little disturbed by the reccomendations for it as the criteria seems to be how the rod looks the day we built it and ignores the long term problems inherent in its use. i always try to have a 50 year 'time window' for the rods as that seem to be their useful life. the solvent based preservers in the 70's worked great, no lifting, minimum blotching when varnished. don't know what happened but the new stuff doesn'r work like the old stuff. you might want to experiment with clear nail polish brands....
any of the modern water based preservers bond to the blank much better over time but lack a certain brilliance in their effect compared to laquers.
shellac as a CP is interesting, it bonds to the blank well and although it dries quite hard i have not had the problem with lifting as with some laquers. synthetic varnishes(and virtually all of them are with the exception of waterlox and birchwood casy tru-oil that come to mind) will not bond to the shellac well, dewaxed helps but does not cure this problem. if the rod is exposed to high heat the layers will partially debond leaving a milky appearance. a coat of the previous;y mentiond natural vanished between the shellac and the finish coat seems to help
that leads us to the current fashion of clear wraps, the fashionistas seem to promote the idea that it very technically demanding when in reality it is so much easier than CP wraps. clear wraps are easy, fast, mechanically very sound and very pretty but with only a couple of exceptions it is not a classic look.


#25 FlyDoctor

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:07 AM

AJ--I think your comment about the longevity of these CP treatments is a good one. Does anyone know how long Al's Color Rite has been in use? It has the same milky appearance as the water soluble Varathane, cleans up with water, but has an alcohol carrier so I bet it is a clear gloss acrylic like the Varathane. May be the same as Mop'n Glow Acrylic floor wax. I personally like the transparent/translucent wraps a lot myself but the Java Brown/Antique Gold thread makes a really classy combination. Hope it deos last a few years--Larry

#26 ajthramer

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 10:55 AM

over a decade so far flydoc, no signs of failure, yet....

#27 Carlin

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 11:55 AM

Thank you for the update and additional information gentlemen! smile.gif

Chris, or "He-Who-is-Trying-to-be-Patient-as-he-Waits-for-his-Bottle-of-Al's-to-be-Shipped". rolleyes.gif

Chris

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#28 Carlin

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 12:50 PM

Well AJ, next time I question anything, I'm just going to give you a call instead of going through all this damn testing as you had it right from the start. laugh.gif

I received my bottle of Al's earlier this week and as I had a personal rod that was all wrapped (Pearsall's gossamer) and ready for finish, I used it. I applied 4 coats on the wraps using a square brush, being careful to pull a little excess over the edges onto the cane, and applied a couple extra drops using a bodkin to the tents around the guide feet for good measure.

The stuff dries in 1 hour, is very, very thin build, cures in 12 hours and does a great job of preserving the color and sparkle of silk.

The rod that I just dipped came out with no bleed through on any of the wraps including guide wraps, ferrule wraps, intermediates and trim wraps! headbang.gif With AJ's longevity endorsement, I couldn't be happier.

kicking.gif wub.gif kicking.gif

Chris

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#29 jaybird

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:21 AM


I just wanted to publicly thank A.J. for providing the insight on color preserving. I have just finished running some tests with 4 coats of Al's and then my normal spar varnish on top. It worked perfectly and will now allow me to replicate more closely some of the classic rods in terms of cosmetics.

And Chris, your color preserver test was great and saved me time and headaches.

Thanks you guys!

Jay


#30 Oldstrom

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:14 PM

Chris,

So, has your opinion changed after your testing about the weakness of wraps with color preserver and the advisability of using only varnish?

Mark
Mark (AKA SecondHandWolf)

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