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PMQ Poor mans quad

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#16 phg

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:10 PM

You can often find Tonken cane at the garden center, but you need to look at it closely. Look at the dark ring just below the outside enamel. These are the power fibers. They should be very dense, and about 1/3 the total thickness of the wall. It will often be painted, so you may want to surreptitiously scrape off some the paint to examine it closer. The one thing you don't want to see is diamond shapes in the power fibers. That indicates a different species of cane.

This picture shows a garden stake under a split of genuine Tonken cane. This stake, that is about 3/4" in diameter, is almost surely Tonken cane, and was used to make a very nice PMQ.
IPB Image

#17 jbarnick

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 04:32 PM

When using a stake of such small diameter do you just live with the possibility of losing some power fibers while squaring off the enamel side since there is so much curve in the bamboo?

#18 phg

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 10:52 AM

Actually, I didn't try to flatten the outside curve. After splitting and flattening the nodes, I laid it on the enamel side and planed the pith side flat, (a small groove in the bench kept it stable) and squared the sides to that. The result is a slight radius on the top and bottom, but not anything you'd pay much attention to.

I think this stake would give 4 usable strips, this is the small end. The one I used for my first PMQ was a bit bigger and gave 6 strips.

#19 testwood

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 01:07 PM

Hi - In an earlier post I said how impressed I was with Mungo Parks PMQ post - superb - stating I was about to make one using Garden Centre cane as my Tonkin is not yet to hand. The cane I used was about 2" in diameter and 9' long, cost me 2 ($4) each - I bought 5 to practice on as I intend to make a 7' 5wt from Wayne Cattanach's book The cane have allowed me to practice Drying,Splitting Flaming, splitting into strips, rough forming planing and sharpening. - A voyage of discovery !! I am making final planing forms whilst awaiting the Tonkin.
I came across Mungo Parks post at exactly the right time, I needed to make a rod that I could use before the brown trout season ended!! I made Lee Wulffs 5' 101/2 , have finished the blank and had a cast on the lawn, lovely feeling, I think I will make another PMQ.
Can anyone help with my questions ?
In making a quad, is it ok to simply use the dimensions for a hex ? - in WWW.keone.com/bamboofly rods/design- philosophy.html, it states that a quad is stronger that a hex .
How do you size a ferral for a quad ?.
Are there tapers for quads on the web ?
Has anyone worked out a comparison between a 4 piece quad and a PMQ ?
What is a 2SQ.
Thanks for all the super posts , for someone like me just starting out in bamboo they are magic.

#20 phg

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 09:01 PM

Q: In making a quad, is it ok to simply use the dimensions for a hex ? In WWW.keone.com/bamboofly rods/design- philosophy.html, it states that a quad
is stronger that a hex .
A: No, for the same dimensions (width and height) a quad will have a bit more mass than a hex. If you don't make any allowance for that, your rod will be at least 1 line size heavier, and significantly stiffer. While no quad will ever cast exactly like a hex, multiplying each station dimension by .93 will give you a similar action, while a factor of .95 gives you an equivelent mass but a slightly stiffer action.

Q: Are there tapers for quads on the web ?
A: If you look around, you can find a few. It's easy enough to convert hex to quad. We can post a few, though. I've worked out a Payne 100 and the Cattach 8062 and 8063

Has anyone worked out a comparison between a 4 piece quad and a PMQ ?
-Yes, but not me. Tom Smithwick could probably answer that.

What is a 2SQ.
- A 2SQ (Two Strip Quad) and a PMQ (Poor Man's Quad) are the same thing. Most of us who call ours PMQ's use cheap parts to keep the cost down. Eventually I'll spring for some good hardware, but right now, I'm still learning.

Q: How do you size a ferral for a quad ?.
A: Someone named Kyle Druey came up with a formula that seems to work well. His explanation was a bit convoluted, but what it comes down to is multiplying the thickness by 72.192 and rounding up to the next size.

Here's a chart I worked up for my own use:
The first section are the tip tops

quad thickness Ferrule size
(in inches) (in 64ths)
0.055 -------- 4
0.062 -------- 4.5
0.069 -------- 5
0.076 -------- 5.5
0.083 -------- 6

0.125 -------- 9
0.138" -------- 10
0.152 -------- 11
0.166 -------- 12
0.180" -------- 13
0.194" -------- 14
0.208 -------- 15

0.222 -------- 16
0.235 -------- 17
0.249 -------- 18
0.263 -------- 19
0.277 -------- 20
0.290 -------- 21
0.304 -------- 22

#21 testwood

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 07:06 AM

Thanks very much phq for a SUPERB DETAILED REPLY clapping.gif clapping.gif clapping.gif
The amount of info: available in the forum is amazing.
A soon a I have finished my inovative wink.gif set of final forms and have mastered how to upload photos I will post for your comments.
I have tryed to use the ' introduce yourself ' feature on the forum and keep bombing out however :
I live in Berkshire England, am 73, mad about fly fishing, had to give up golf , messing about with cane is definitely a curative. Thanks again

#22 Mungo Park

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 05:14 PM

here is a link to a woodworking forum showing how to make a plane blade sharpening jig. I thouht it fit with the spirit of the PMQ.


Cheers Ron.

In my limited experience, never pet a burning dog.

#23 testwood

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:16 PM

Hi everyone
I have built the blanks for the - EDWARDS No 25 Quadrate 7042 7ft 4wt - that I got from the Taper Library.
The blanks were built as a PMQ.
Can anyoune please help with 'Guide Location' and 'Guide Size' or give me a clue how to calculate same.
The rod is a two piece , would any 7ft 2 piece rod do.?
Thanks for help.

#24 testwood

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:05 PM

Great Day - Collected my Tonkin Cane today, 5 cane in a bundle - Superb Quality and pretty straight !! 9 per cane. Any blokes in the UK looking for a supplier give me a post. biggrin.gif

#25 testwood

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 02:25 PM

We all have to live our dreams.
The only cane fly rod I have finish built to date is my 6ft 5wt PMQ out of garden centre cane. Today I took it to the river and strung it up.
Waders on, centre of the chalk stream, hatch of some small upwing (mayfly) in progress.
Caught a small brownie about a pound - magic.
Only people who have caught on a rod made by themselves know the feeling thumbup.gif
Now I have some Tonkin who knows ?.

#26 luv2fishnwv

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 11:51 AM

I'm hoping that someone here can perhaps help me with a PMQ problem I'm having. What ever I'm doing wrong it's consistant. I have based my taper on a Payne 7ft 2 pc that I have. I love the way it casts works a fish. The butt section of my PMQ seems great. However the tip section (on my third one) has a very pronounced spline to it. I taped the guides and cast the rod. It casts great and only fueled my desire to build.
The pronounced spline is so bad it tends to twist the rod when bent or under a load. I clamped the blank to my work bench and attached a sandwich bag to the tip top. Once the load is enough to bend he rod about 10 or 12 inches off of level it twists. If the guides were placed on the glue line side this doesn't happen. It's my understanding that if this is done too much stress can be put on the glue line when the rod is being used. Is this true? Placing the guides on the enamel side does not have a twist when under load. I have checked and rechecked the taper. I can find nothing to point to the problem. I have a fourth tip glued up, but befor I begin to plane it I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. When casting the rod ( unfinished) I can not tell a difference in the guides being on the glue line or the enamel side. I just want to do it right. I'd like to build each of my sons one and don't want to continue with what I'm doing wrong. I'd appreciate any help.

#27 testwood

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 01:46 PM

Hi - I bought some chrom plated brass ferrules from JannsNetcraft for my PMQ ($1.79) great value.
Should I make small sawcuts and try and form a square where the ferrule buts on to the rod, I think the process is called 'Crowning'. or is it OK to leave the ferrule as is ?. dunno.gif

#28 flykid

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 09:52 PM

I just finished my tip section and realized the exact same thing as luv2fishnwv did. The problem is I have read that you shouldn't put the guides on the glue side??????????? dunno.gif dunno.gif

#29 testwood

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 02:31 PM

Hi - Gave my PMQ Edwards 7ft 5wt it first outing today. Not bad,not bad at all. Took some time to get used to the slooooow flexing. Ocne I got used to waiting on the backcast and feeling the rod flex right down to the butt we got on fine. Having painted the house I really should get back to finish my hex which is much more trying than I thought. wallbash.gif There are opportunities for cockups at every turn mad.gif

#30 testwood

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 02:03 PM

Hi - When planing down the strips to make a PMQ I wanted to hold the strips steady wallbash.gif and make measuring the thichness of the strips at the 5" spacings easier. Once the flaming and node flattening had been done I used Double Sided tape to stick the strips on to a piece of Conti board ( melamine covered used for shelving) its smooth, flat and cheap. It really does grip and makes the measuring with depth gauge or depth calipers quick and easy. Its also a good check the you have the strips flat before you start into planing.
Worked for me. thumbsup.gif Allow 2 thou for the tape thickness.

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