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Issue with Planing Forms


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#1 Barberousse

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

So,

I've just completed flat filing my planing forms, I might add my second attempt at a set of forms, the first set were just a warm up whistling1.gif. My thumbs have taken a beating to say the least and I've no intention of building a third set, not for a while anyway.

My issue is this. Laying a flat edge across the planing surfaces and shining a torch down the forms shows that I've not done a bad job in getting them nice and flat, so far so good. On opening the forms a couple of mil and doing the flat edge test again shows mixed results. One side remains nice and flat all the way up the whole length of the form, flip them over however and I'm getting light shining through and able to rock the flat edge from side to side, all be it a tiny amount. The largest gap measured at 0.002" with a feeler gauge, this is only at one point on the form and the rest 0.001" or less.

As one side remains parallel I reckon I can discount the dowels being out of alignment as this would effect both sides. On measuring the distance on each side from the planing surface to the top of the dowel pins I've found no evidence to suggest this is the case either. The differences I measured ranged between 0.001" & 0.01 on both the good side and the not so good side. Where the difference is the greatest it doesn't reflect on the planing surface when doing the flat edge test. In fact where the largest gap is, as mentioned earlier at 0.002" the dowel pin measures as good as perfectly parallel. I can't seem to see any correlation between any of the measurements wallbash.gif

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, I'm guessing that I need to get them perfectly flat somehow or is that amount of movement acceptable?

Steve





#2 SAMPLER

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 09:35 AM

First off... welcome a board! Second off, some may say you are crazy for building your own forms but I have to agree the challenge and appreciation of knowing that you made them yourself is very rewarding.

I have attached a link to my form build thread which may help with some questions you have. The tips and advance that best benefited me with my build were simple. Take your time, measure often and consistently,and keep everything flat and square!

Bamboo Planning Forms - The building Process

Hope this help. Feel to reach out if needed.

Dana



#3 Barberousse

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:37 AM

Hi Dana,

If I wasn't crazy before I certainly am now.

Thanks for the link to your thread and congratulations on the success you've had with your endeavours. I've come across that thread before in doing my research for for this.

I can't seem to find anyone who has had the same trouble as I'm having at the moment. I think I may have to take a few days off from it before I do something stupid and ruin them completely.

As I know one of the planing surfaces is parallel with the dowel pins and remains that way when I pull them apart. I wonder if I was to flat file the problem side with the bars open slightly from each other?

This is how I messed up my first set but I'm quite sure the pins were not aligned correctly, I was getting this problem on both sides also. I consequently drilled the holes for this set of forms on a milling machine in a friends workshop instead of my little Drill press.

I'll let you know how I get on

Thanks

Steve

#4 Galt

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:55 AM

Short answer to your question, in my opinion, no; your forms appear to be close enough. Everything that is manufactured(by hand or machine) is made to a set of tolerances. Some are smaller than others. You have detected a variation in your form, but you do not yet know if it is one you can accept. May I suggest that you plane a set of test strips, bind them and evaluate your results. I will speculate that as a new maker, there will be other variances that will arise that will be greater than the 1-2 thou. that you detected in your form. If you develop the skill to hold your plane parallel to your form, then the form serves only to arrest further cutting by the plane. There is another assumption here and that is that the axis of the groove is square to the horizontal axis of your form.

If I were to speculate as to why conditions look good with the form pulled tight and not when it is open, it would be that the dowel axis are not true 90 degrees to the to the two mating faces of the form. When you flat filed the form, it was pulled tight against the mating faces stressing the bars. When you filed the groove, the bars were in a relaxed state. You could check for this condition by placing s center gauge in the groove along side of a machinist's square in both the open and closed condition to look for differences.

Many fine rods have been crafted using wood forms. Those forms can change dimensions over time with changes in atmospheric moisture. Crafting rods requires both tools and skill and they are relative. You can make up for errors in the one with improvements in the other.

Galt

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#5 SAMPLER

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:26 PM

So, when forms are together both side seem to be flat, correct? Then when you separate them one side stays flat and the other shows a variance, am I still with you?

If this is the case then ultimately you will have issues with get "perfect" angles but all in all I would say that things are not a complete lose. I might say it would be ok to open the forms slightly and do some more filing but this does seem a bit scary to me. If I was to do so I would want to make sure that I knew which side was which 100% before making any moves. I would make note of the side that stays flat and keep this in mind for the butt section taper. The side that shows a variance when open I would make the tips taper more so because you will not be opening this side as much to create a tip taper which should play in your favor to reduce the overall variance in the end. If the problem lies with the pins any movement of the forms will make the problem more noticeable. I would open no more than a few thousands.

If you have not done so yet, I would blue (dye) your forms and do a light filing to see for sure if there are any high or low spots. Keep checking to be sure things are square and flat and more forward slowly.

In the end you still will be making bamboo rods and still be catching beautiful fish. A 100 years ago cane builders the same issues and yet there are many beautiful antique rods out there today.

Keep us posted on your progress.

#6 Barberousse

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (Galt @ Feb 25 2014, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Short answer to your question, in my opinion, no; your forms appear to be close enough. Everything that is manufactured(by hand or machine) is made to a set of tolerances. Some are smaller than others. You have detected a variation in your form, but you do not yet know if it is one you can accept. May I suggest that you plane a set of test strips, bind them and evaluate your results. I will speculate that as a new maker, there will be other variances that will arise that will be greater than the 1-2 thou. that you detected in your form. If you develop the skill to hold your plane parallel to your form, then the form serves only to arrest further cutting by the plane. There is another assumption here and that is that the axis of the groove is square to the horizontal axis of your form.

If I were to speculate as to why conditions look good with the form pulled tight and not when it is open, it would be that the dowel axis are not true 90 degrees to the to the two mating faces of the form. When you flat filed the form, it was pulled tight against the mating faces stressing the bars. When you filed the groove, the bars were in a relaxed state. You could check for this condition by placing s center gauge in the groove along side of a machinist's square in both the open and closed condition to look for differences.

Many fine rods have been crafted using wood forms. Those forms can change dimensions over time with changes in atmospheric moisture. Crafting rods requires both tools and skill and they are relative. You can make up for errors in the one with improvements in the other.

Galt


Hi Galt,

I should have been more specific in my initial description. I haven't as of yet filed the v-groove and this is the reason why I would like them as flat as possible when open. That rocking motion can't be good when aiming for a perfect 60 degree and perpendicular groove.

I appreciate the fact that there'll be many more imperfections/variances along the way but I have to at least try and give myself a good point from which to start.

You're point about the bars being stressed when pulled tight together seems quite likely the route of this issue. Or at least I hope. This could explain why I'm only seeing this on one side. It's quite difficult to explain without a diagram but if the bars are flat filed while under this stress then relaxed when opened, I'm seeing a high spot on one side and quite likely a low spot on the reverse, it's just not as noticeable because there is no rocking action.

I need to investigate further but I think you could be right, if I tweak the bars open ever so slightly to relieve this stress then flat file them I should get the result I looking for. It'll just mean that I'll never be able to have them completely closed when planing strips.

Thanks

Steve


#7 Barberousse

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (SAMPLER @ Feb 25 2014, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, when forms are together both side seem to be flat, correct? Then when you separate them one side stays flat and the other shows a variance, am I still with you?

If this is the case then ultimately you will have issues with get "perfect" angles but all in all I would say that things are not a complete lose. I might say it would be ok to open the forms slightly and do some more filing but this does seem a bit scary to me. If I was to do so I would want to make sure that I knew which side was which 100% before making any moves. I would make note of the side that stays flat and keep this in mind for the butt section taper. The side that shows a variance when open I would make the tips taper more so because you will not be opening this side as much to create a tip taper which should play in your favor to reduce the overall variance in the end. If the problem lies with the pins any movement of the forms will make the problem more noticeable. I would open no more than a few thousands.

If you have not done so yet, I would blue (dye) your forms and do a light filing to see for sure if there are any high or low spots. Keep checking to be sure things are square and flat and more forward slowly.

In the end you still will be making bamboo rods and still be catching beautiful fish. A 100 years ago cane builders the same issues and yet there are many beautiful antique rods out there today.

Keep us posted on your progress.


Dana,

That's exactly right, and you're right about keeping the good side for the butt side as this variance is more noticeable the further apart the bars are. However, I'm hoping to resolve this before moving on to the v-groove. Hopefully it's just a case of the bars being over stressed when pulled tight together due to the inside mating surfaces not being perpendicular to the pins, as suggested by Galt. This shouldn't be that much of an issue as long as the planing surfaces run parallel with the pins, just means I can never use them closed tightly.

I've got a lot of checking and re-checking to do and it all sounds a bit risky but yes, if I do end up going down that route I'll only open them by a few thou as suggested, just to take the stress out. Fingers crossed I'll have it sorted over the next few days.

Thanks, will keep you posted

Steve



#8 SAMPLER

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 04:06 PM

Another option..... you could always re-drill the pins at a new location on the forms and just make your section measurements from that point. Yes more time consuming and a little bit of back tracking but at least your efforts will be proven with the rewards of many great bamboo rods in your future.

Just another 2 cents to think about.


#9 Barberousse

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:52 AM

So....I've been taking measurements from all over my forms and have come to the conclusion that there are too many factors at play here to resolve easily and get the perfection for which I seek. I believe much of it is due to to my initial filing of the two mating surfaces, some pin alignment issues and probably poor filing technique. However I'm not going to get too stressed over a few thousands of an inch here and there which may or may not cause any noticeable imperfections.

I've opened the bars up slightly and given them a quick going over with the bastard file, this has eradicated the rocking motion and now the flat edge stays flat with the bars both open and closed. My only issue now is that where the variance was on the outside edge has now moved to the inside. This is something I feel I can live with for now and I'm hoping shouldn't really be a problem.

When I do eventually get around to building a rod, if I feel it is an issue I'll go ahead and build another set, third time lucky. wink.gif

Next stage, filing the V-Groove, this should be interesting. I'll be using the method described by Thomas Penrose. Any tips greatly appreciated, what about the increment by which to open the stations, 0.005" or 0.006" or really doesn't matter. I'll be using a cutting fluid as recommended. Take my time and measure often.

#10 Galt

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Barberousse @ Feb 28 2014, 02:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So....I've been taking measurements from all over my forms and have come to the conclusion that there are too many factors at play here to resolve easily and get the perfection for which I seek. I believe much of it is due to to my initial filing of the two mating surfaces, some pin alignment issues and probably poor filing technique. However I'm not going to get too stressed over a few thousands of an inch here and there which may or may not cause any noticeable imperfections.

I've opened the bars up slightly and given them a quick going over with the bastard file, this has eradicated the rocking motion and now the flat edge stays flat with the bars both open and closed. My only issue now is that where the variance was on the outside edge has now moved to the inside. This is something I feel I can live with for now and I'm hoping shouldn't really be a problem.

When I do eventually get around to building a rod, if I feel it is an issue I'll go ahead and build another set, third time lucky. wink.gif

Next stage, filing the V-Groove, this should be interesting. I'll be using the method described by Thomas Penrose. Any tips greatly appreciated, what about the increment by which to open the stations, 0.005" or 0.006" or really doesn't matter. I'll be using a cutting fluid as recommended. Take my time and measure often.



Steve,

I would suggest that you use 0.005" as your station to station variation as it will simplify your arithmetic and hence your process( 0.00577" would be the exact variance). You can always open your form a little more when you set the taper to plane. As to using cutting fluid when you file, I would advise against it. It will make clearing the chips from the file more difficult. A very dry sharp file will release chips quite nicely as long as you do not press too hard and thus pack the chips in to the file gullets. Lightly chalking the file can also help the chips release.

Galt

"Illegitimus non carborundum"

#11 canerodscom

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE (Galt @ Feb 28 2014, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lightly chalking the file can also help the chips release.


Chalk helps keep the file clean, as Galt suggests. So does rubbing a little bar soap on the file teeth. For me, some files release chips more easily with chalk, some with soap. I like railroad chalk on big files, and Ivory soap on small ones.
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#12 Barberousse

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:36 PM

Thanks guys, started filing the V-Groove today, using a little chalk which seems effective, it's gonna take a while as I'm being extremely cautious, desperately don't want to mess them up.

Steve

#13 SAMPLER

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:10 AM

How's the progress coming?

#14 Barberousse

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 04:28 PM

Very slowly I'm afraid. I've not been able to grab much workshop time, life keeps getting in the way wink.gif hope to have them done by the end of next week. I'll post my success/failure when I'm done or if I run into anymore difficulties.

#15 LeeO

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:17 AM

It will come out fine.
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